Ferguson

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Ferguson

Postby poopiepants » Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:29 pm

I wasn't there and I have no idea what happened.
I have read a few articles and this one really caught me attention, the way things were laid out.


I wanted to get some opinions from the Red-Eye peeps, especially the law.

http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/d ... story-side
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Flying Penguin » Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:56 pm

Yet another good reason for body cameras on cops. I have no idea what happened, and no one will ever really know.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby poopiepants » Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:01 am

You have some police unions fighting the body cameras.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Flying Penguin » Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:22 am

Can't see why anymore. Win win for everyone including the cops. Cops didn't like car cams at first either, but now it's their best friend.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby BigDog » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:23 pm

I will say it again, the lesson in Ferguson is the same lesson that was learned by Travon Martin. If you try to beat on someone with a gun, you are going to get shot.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Los » Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:44 pm

BigDog wrote:I will say it again, the lesson in Ferguson is the same lesson that was learned by Travon Martin. If you try to beat on someone with a gun, you are going to get shot.


True that!
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Re: Ferguson

Postby viciousvic » Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:36 am

Poopie,

Vox.com is an anti-cop site like Copblock. Everything you read there is slanted against cops. Surprisingly, the MSM has been reporting the facts pretty accurately. It's clear the cop acted in self-defense.

Oh, and God bless Charles Barkley:

Barkley: Ghetto Would Be Like ‘Wild, Wild West’ if it Wasn’t for Police

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2014/12/03/barkley-defends-police-following-ferguson/
"As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." -- Proverbs 27:17
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Flying Penguin » Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:23 pm

From what I've seen, the cop in Ferguson was justified. I'm not even too concerned about the New York choking of a suspect. The guy DID resist arrest, and the cops needed to subdue him. If a cop let go everytime a perp said "I can't breath" there'd be a lot of dead cops around. It's a tragedy, but I can't really fault the cops. I do fault the overzealous way the city wants to treat extremely petty crime. The guy was selling single cigarettes for crying out loud. They don't have more important things to deal with?

I am concerned about the Cleveland Police officer shooting the 12 year old kid who was brandishing an airsoft gun. From the video there didn't seem to be any "drop the weapon and put your hands up" dialog at all. Those guys drove in like Starsky and Hutch and it seems like one of them had an itchy trigger finger.

Yeah the airsoft gun had the orange tip removed, but you don't just open fire on a kid (and it was obvious he was a kid from the video) without a warning.

It was a playground, and it was a kid with what looked like a gun. The cops could have taken a moment to assess the situation.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby viciousvic » Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:59 am

Bob,

I think the Cleveland incident turned out the way it did because as the officers pulled up the kid reached into his waistband for the gun. The KID knew it wasn't a real gun and WE know watching the video that it's not a real gun. But THE OFFICERS arriving and exiting the car didn't know that. Watch the video closely. The car pulls up at 1:05, the kid approaches it and immediately begins to pull up his shirt in the front, and at 1:06 the officer has already gotten out of the car and shot him. You have to ask yourself, if the police are pulling up to you, WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU REACH FOR A GUN (toy or not) IN YOUR WAISTBAND?! What it is is a TREMENDOUS tragedy for the kid, his family, and the officers involved. The vast majority of cops I know, myself included, would be traumatized for killing a 12 year-old kid with a toy gun. But we don't have the luxury of time-lapse video to make life and death decisions. The kid (being a kid) made a HUGE mistake in reaching for the gun. Maybe he thought he was going to be helpful taking it out and handing it over to the police. It was a terrible mistake by both him and the officers.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/26/tamir-rice-video-shows-boy-shot-police-cleveland

You have to watch the video prior to the shooting also. WTH is he standing on the sidewalk, with this modified toy pistol, and pointing it around? Again, he's a kid displaying bad judgment, but the cops DON'T KNOW THAT. There are a number of ways this could've played out and this kind of scenario runs through cops' minds all the time.

#1 - The gun is fake, the cops don't know it, and they shoot the kid.
#2 - The gun is REAL and the cops either shoot the kid or the kid shoots one of the cops.
#3 - The gun is FAKE, the cops don't know it, and they GAMBLE THEIR LIVES on it being fake. They don't shoot the kid and everyone goes home.

What you're asking in scenario #3 is for the cops to gamble their lives, and they're not going to do that. With the number of people today who shoot cops just for the hell of it, there is no way that cops are going to take a chance that someone doesn't have evil intent. If the public demanded that officers do that, you'd have mass resignations and afterwards no one would want to be a cop. (The latter is already happening.)

I had a call once similar to this. A suspect in camo jumping fences, wearing a mask, and carrying an assault rifle. I arrive and, sure as sh*t, I see the guy acting EXACTLY as described. It was right at dusk, so it was getting dark. Fortunately I was in my car on the street and he was about 30 yards away in someone's backyard when he saw me and stopped. He stood there dumbfounded and, because he didn't make any attempts to raise the rifle or run, I waved him over to the car. As he sauntered over I realized he was probably a dumb kid - and he was - who lacked common sense. The gun was fake, I took him home, and told them what he was doing was CRAZY. When I was a kid we played like that, but it was also a group, not alone, and we certainly didn't wear masks and camo.

The point is that had things been slightly different; had I not seen the kid, had I gotten out of my car, had he rounded a corner and we had surprised each other, that kid might've wound up DEAD. You can't rightly judge certain situations unless you've been there, with your heart racing, and having to decide if someone lives or dies in milliseconds...
"As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." -- Proverbs 27:17
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Re: Ferguson

Postby viciousvic » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:05 am

Here's another recent and similar case that's gotten a lot of attention. Forget about the fact that the gun is either real or fake and simply watch what the guy does with it as he's walking around. On what PLANET is this normal behavior?

"As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." -- Proverbs 27:17
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Re: Ferguson

Postby BigDog » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:12 am

It looks like the cop involved in the Cleveland shooting had been fired from his first job as a cop for being emotionally unstable and unable to handle a firearm. apparently the City of Cleveland did not do enough due diligence when they hired him:

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents ... se-to.html

Page 56 onwards is insteresting, gives the reasons behind his firing. Based on what his training officer wrote about him, the dude had no business what so ever carrying a gun!

Recommendation
Due to this dangerous loss of composure during live range training and his inability to
manage this personal stress, I do not believe Ptl. Loehmann shows the maturity needed to
work in our employment.
Unfortunately in law enforcement there are times when instructions need be followed to
the letter, and I am under the impression Ptl. Loehmann, under certain circumstances,
will not react in the way instructed.
Ptl. Loehmann's lack of commitment for his future here at Independence is disconcerting.
Although saying he is happy to be here, he seems to be considering other options.
For these reasons, I am recommending he be released from the employment of the City of
Independence. I do not believe time, nor training, will be able to change or correct these
deficiencies.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby Flying Penguin » Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:48 am

One issue I have with Cleveland is why did the cops have to pull up so close to the kid? Why not approach just a bit farther, take some cover, and give the kid a chance to surrender his gun. Instead they do the Starsky and Hutch maneuver and the cop on the passenger side is practically on top of the kid when he opens the door. Maybe they were hoping to catch the perp off guard that way, but I feel it contributed to the shooting.
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Re: Ferguson

Postby viciousvic » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:12 am

Yeah, the guy seems not to have had the maturity level to be a cop. I was an FTO myself for most of my career and it takes a pattern of significant screw-ups for one cop to evaluate another one so critically. And even when an FTO rates a rookie poorly and recommends he be fired, often times he's not; he's simply given to another FTO or transferred to another station. So the fact that he was forced to resign speaks volumes.

I think the reasons Cleveland willfully overlooked his shortcomings are two-fold. First, because he said he was having GF problems, they might've been sympathetic and assumed that if the GF issue was resolved he would be okay. Second, and just as important, is what I referred to above: there is a shortage of cops nationwide because people don't want to be cops any more. Google "police shortage." Because of that, police departments are having to relax their standards more and more in order to fill positions. There are going to be some people who are only marginally qualified to be cops. When I started, almost 35 years ago, it was about 1 in 14. I shudder to think what it is now. And that was of the people that applied, not the general population.

All that being said, we have to look at the details of the shooting itself. If someone broke into Manson's house and Manson shot and killed him, we might say, "Manson?! That guy is friggin' nuts!!!" But him being nuts doesn't change the fact that he was acting lawfully. It's the same with this officer. Sure, it'd be great if he was rock-stable and a pillar of the community. But the reality isn't always like that, which is why we have to weigh the case on its merits.

Your question about why they pulled right up to him is a good one and I considered it also. Having been a cop myself, these are the reasons why they, or even I, would've pulled up to him instead of keeping a further distance away:

1 - Many times "man with a gun" calls are total BS. There is no gun, it's a cell phone, a wallet, or it's something else that someone mistook for a gun.
2 - The kid may not have been the suspect they were looking for.
3 - When they approached there was no gun visible. (See 1 and 2 above).
4 - They were riding as a two-man unit and you tend to feel more secure when your back-up is with you.
5 - If they had seen a gun they probably would've done the same as I would: stop a distance away and ask for back-up. Get on the vehicle loudspeaker and tell the guy to put the gun down, etc., etc. Ironically, if the kid had had the gun out, that's probably what would've happened and he might still be alive.

Note also that the cop that shot the kid wasn't driving, the other one was. So to a large extent he's the one responsible for pulling up so close that his partner had to react the way he did. In the end, the way I judge these things is by looking at the totality of the facts known to the cops at the time. I have to say that if I had pulled up next to a suspect who reached for a gun in his waistband, I would've shot him too.
"As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend." -- Proverbs 27:17
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Re: Ferguson

Postby viciousvic » Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:19 am

Here are some examples of why cops can't take a chance on a gun being a "toy."

http://madworldnews.com/police-confiscate-toy-gun/

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Criminals caught with real rifles painted to look like toys

Police in San Leandro, California, announced they confiscated two AK-pattern rifles during a drug raid that were built with orange-tipped muzzles to make them look like toy or airsoft rifles.
http://www.guns.com/2014/09/08/criminals-caught-with-paint-real-rifles-painted-to-look-like-toys-video/
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